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When to use epi or go to ER? (Read 4453 times)
DavinaRN
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When to use epi or go to ER?
01/19/13 at 01:50:06
 
Being tested currently for MCAS, on Zantac 300mg and Allegra 360mg a day. The allergist gave me 4 refills on two pack epi. I know with bee allergy I wait for first sign of breathing issue, then inject. But my anaphylactic episode in Dec progressed from full body rash/flush to I'm "dying" in minutes and epi didn't fully resolve it alone. I do have script for trypase level within 2hrs of full body flush.  I really didn't care for this Ana episode in Dec, I feel safer dealing with the bees/fire ants. I know how to treat self and stay home (epi, Benadryl and medrol dose pack  Smiley )
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Lisa
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Re: When to use epi or go to ER?
Reply #1 - 01/20/13 at 15:35:01
 
Hi Davina!!!


I understand your concerns in wondering when you need to step in with an epi.  Most of us have these questions too!   According to Dr. Escribano's REMA protocols, the time to step in with an epi is when there is blood pressure changes.  Here is the link to these protocols.   You should copy them and put them into your glove compartment, etc.  And if you keep a pen drive on you for medical information this should be one of the first documents the ER people open - it's full of explanations and medications and do's and don'ts.

http://mastcelldisorders.wallack.us/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1293571751


Now, as to knowing when to use it when you haven't got a BP cuff on you.   Well, I think that Dr. Escribano's guidelines can't be argued with, but here's the thing, each of us are different and you should take these protocols to your doctor and speak with him/her and ask what they think of this, is this sound advice for your case.   You see, from what you describe, regardless of whether your BP is crashing, you are into serious trouble and the potential for the crash is there.  

This is why staying at home and trying to deal with it on your own is very dangerous.   I've had this mentality for quite some time until last year when I began reacting to perfumes.  One day my son broke a small vial of a free sample perfume in the house while I was napping and when I woke up and he opened my room and the strong perfume came wafting it, I began to feel ill pretty quickly.  My stomach was churning by the time I'd gotten the windows opened and within 5 minutes I was passed out on the couch and the oral antihistamines I'd taken were useless in light of the size of the reaction!!   My son kept working at getting me fully conscious but I couldn't respond longer than to say, "take me to the hospital"!   I didn't have an epi-pen then (I do now, thankfully!) and the only thing I had was antihistamines and prednisone.   I should have gone to the ER but my husband came home and began working with me and he began shoving antihistamines and prednisone down my throat until finally I began to respond about 30 minutes later.   I had to call my dermatologist to ask her how to deal with this and with her advice and the meds I finally began to turn around.  

This situation taught me a VERY strong lesson - DON'T MESS AROUND WITH THESE BIG REACTIONS!!! GO TO THE ER!!!

The reason why you can't mess about with this is because there is so much leaking of fluids going on at this time that you are needing to be on an IV with tons of fluid to help compensate for the reacting and damage which is going on.   You also need to have more medication than you can reasonably take.   Dr. Simon Brown did a paper on Cardiac Anaphylaxis and the Pathophysiology of Shock in Anaphylaxis and his papers indicate that with huge reactions like what you describe, it's dangerous to be taking oral antihistamines and you need them in IV form.  Also you need to be in an ER setting so that if you get into trouble, they can take immediate steps.  

You see, Davina, the major danger for masto patients isn't that of the throat closing up.  This is because not all of us do this.  Our anaphylaxis isn't true anaphylaxis which is IgE allergy mediated.   A great many of us are not allergic.  The mechanisms are different for our reactions and we don't do the huge overall explosions that patients who are truly allergic do.   But most people think that having their throat close up is the problem and it's just not so.  We are in more danger of cardiovascular collapse than anything else and this is why we have to step in quickly.  We need the ER and their resources because it's an unfair burden we lay on our families otherwise.  I don't know about you, but I know fully well that my family would be blaming themselves for my death if I were to always fight going to the ER when i'm in trouble. I don't wish to lay that burden upon them!

So, when you are showing serious signs the way you are, you need to go to the ER.  Smaller reactions, those that respond to antihistamine treatment are those which allow you to remain at home, but if after 15 minutes and you're still reacting, then that's when you draw the line and go to the ER.  

I hope this helps!!

Lisa


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17493496



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Lisa
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Re: When to use epi or go to ER?
Reply #2 - 01/20/13 at 15:46:53
 
I just came across and EXCELLENT article on anaphylaxis.   Mind you this is about allergy driven anaphylaxis and so you may present your anaphylaxis differently, but what matters is understanding the mechanisms and know how to deal with it.  


This article is a FULL article and you can download the PDF for your files.  

So, download the article Davina and if you have any questions go ahead and pose them here and I and the others can help you understand if you have any doubts.


Hugs!

Lisa



https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2006/185/5/2-anaphylaxis-diagnosis-and-management...


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DavinaRN
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Re: When to use epi or go to ER?
Reply #3 - 01/20/13 at 16:10:58
 
Thanks for the info Lisa. The Ana episode from this was about a million times worse than bees. It's probably because the bee allergy gradually got worse and stings are not frequent like eating and showering are. With bees I know as long as it is not a wasp or yellow jacket I have 10mins to give my shot and at that point I'm just a little short of breath. Luckily my last stings with the wasp or yellow jacket was before I had to carry epi, so I know my time is short. Fire ant bites mean I have to stay on Benadryl or I can't sit up, until medrol dose pack works. Hmmmm wonder if I had mast cell issue then since it only took one bite.
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Lisa
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Re: When to use epi or go to ER?
Reply #4 - 01/21/13 at 03:01:40
 
Davina, your question about having masto "back when" is spot on!!  Mast cell disorders are genetic.  You inherited it.  This is something you were born with but being that this is a very slow growing defect on the mast cell it can take YEARS before this will show up and that will also depend upon the defect the patient has. The researchers are also thinking that because there is more than one defect, depending upon that defect or how many you have this also influences when and how and to what degree the disease shows itself.  There is still way too much we don't understand, unfortunately.  

So, to answer your question I would not have any doubts that yes, you had masto back when...!   My question is, however, have you ever had any IgE testing for allergies to these creatures?   So often, out of our ignorance, we and even doctors will call something an allergy when in truth it may not be.   You see, masto patients have been studied to find out how "allergic"  they are.  When I'm saying allergy I'm speaking IgE mediated allergies.  Research found that masto patients are no more IgE allergic than any other patient group.  This means that most of our reactions are coming from a different pathway.  

Let me put it into easier terms.   I grew up outside of Washington DC.   I'm from inside the Beltway.   Those of us who lived inside knew the back roads to take us into the city and we could avoid the beltway and the transit on the major roadways getting into town.  Granted, the time it took was about the same regardless of going back roads or main highways!  But the goal was to reach the city  -  pathways.

When you are talking about the immune system, and JillyBean is our resident immunologist here and she could give you much better understanding than I, but from what I've learned there are different immunological pathways which work inside of us.  IgE is just one of them.  When you have a true IgE mediated allergy you have antibodies which will float along and attach themselves to the receptors in the mast cell and when they are thus triggered, the mast cell releases it's contents spilling many different mediators (chemicals) which then create the reactions for these mediators have specific and different functions and they will cause specific reactions throughout the body.   Some cause the itching and redness, others constrict breathing, others change the blood pressure, others create nausea and diarrhea.   This is when you have way too many of these mediators being released.   You see, many of these mediators are not meant to be released in massive amounts for they are toxins and their purpose is to be released in small quantities in order to kill off and protect the body from invaders and other things.  There are also good mediators which our bodies need in order to maintain good function like in the case of blood vessel health.  

So, with an IgE mediated allergy you have  an antibody which comes along and attaches to the mast cell receptor and the mast cell opens up and releases its contents.  Every time you have this done, the body creates more antibodies and thus the allergy gets stronger because then you have more mast cells being triggered and more mediators being released at once.   This is why patients who are allergic to something like peanuts can get to be deathly allergic to even just the smell of peanut butter!  Their are just so many antibodies that the body is overwhelmed immediately.   This is why a true bee sting allergy can be lethal as well!

But when we are talking about a mast cell disorder, the problem with us is that our mast cell itself is defective.  It misbehaves.  This is because it is defective.  This defect makes our mast cells trigger happy and they will trigger with things that normally nobody triggers over - heat, cold, exercise, food, chemicals, smells, sun, invasive medical procedures, medications, friction, and oh so very many more things!   Bee stings are known to be lethal for some of us, and after the kinds of reactions other things have given to me, I've no doubt it could be lethal for me if I were to be stung!!

When I was a kid, I had some funny, odd reactions, even though I'd get a bee sting once in a blue moon and had no issues from them.  However, once my masto became activated, I have become so very "pseudo-allergic" to so many things now that I live in fear of bees, something I never had reason to fear ever!  

As to your recent anaphylaxis being so bad, I'm sorry that you had such a bad reaction.   Davina, what triggered it?   Can you tell me what happened, what the circumstances were surrounding it please?   I may be able to help you find the pieces to the puzzle and explain what happened to you to help you avoid another such reaction.  

You see, Davina, often, when we are new to this world of MC disorders, we do things that we would normally do that end up causing reactions that if we change our behavior we end up avoiding a repeat of that situation.    The problem isn't allergies, it's a mast cell which is dysfunctional and triggers to things that normally would not trigger it.   This means that what triggered you before might not trigger you under different circumstances, and what didn't trigger you before, could.   You see, prior to my hysterectomy in 2007 nobody ever suspected I was sick.  The year prior to that surgery things were going on which were hinting at underlying disease and in retrospect I can see incidents which for 10 years had been hinting at masto, but the surgery itself was the last straw and activated my illness.   From this point on my body changed aggressively and I went from someone who never had an allergic reaction to anything but slight rashes to being so horrendously allergic that every medical procedure I do must be done in the operating room in order to keep me safe.   I went from never having a single concern to now having to be overly cautious with everything, making sure that I'm never too hot, nor too cold, near bees, or in situations which create too much noise or aggitation!  On a good day, I can eat almost anything I want, but on a bad day when I'm already reacting, if I do too much physically, stand in lines, eat tomatoes or chocolate, or whatever, I'll find myself getting into trouble and racing for the antihistamines.   This is what a dysfunctional mast cell can do.  

This is why you may not have bad reactions to certain insects, but then could find yourself at death's door if some chick came around with heavy perfume that showed up hours before she did!!!!  It's not you having allergies that's the issue for then this would really not be a tricky disease at all.  When you are IgE allergic, you can do some testing, find out what is triggering the reactions and totally avoid them and be a totally normal and functional person.  But because in our cases the MCs are dysfunctional, depending upon your genetic makeup, you can be deathly ill one moment to one thing and then find that the next moment that thing won't cause you any trouble at all!   This is what drives our doctors totally NUTS and us right along with them for there seems to be no rhyme, reason, pattern or excuse for what triggers us.  

So, please, tell me what was happening around that situation which got you so sick and  lets see if we can figure out what might be the cause of it.   By doing this with me, I can help you see what motivated the reacting and this might help you learn what to avoid, if there's anything to avoid.

I hope this helps!


Lisa



ps - the article below are complex articles with tons of Greek, however, they explain the more than one mutation on the mast cells.












Comparative analysis of mutation of tyrosine kinase kit in mast cells from patients with systemic mast cell activation syndrome and healthy subjects. Molderings, G.J., Meis, K., Kolck, U.W., Homann, J., Frieling, T. Immunogenetics (2010) [Pubmed]

Multiple novel alterations in Kit tyrosine kinase in patients with gastrointestinally pronounced systemic mast cell activation disorder. Molderings, G.J., Kolck, U.W., Scheurlen, C., Brüss, M., Homann, J., Von Kügelgen, I. Scand. J. Gastroenterol. (2007) [Pubmed]
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redbird
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Re: When to use epi or go to ER?
Reply #5 - 01/21/13 at 04:12:16
 
Lisa...
my thinking may be wrong but....seems that I am remembering that  maybe...in my reading or perhaps a doctor but I could not tell you which..think one in Houston said...
that we have a deformed(not a good word)gene in our bodies and for some of us those are triggered to cause our masto and some may never be...I am postive that my masto was triggered by trama and stress..
redbird
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Re: When to use epi or go to ER?
Reply #6 - 01/21/13 at 04:24:05
 
I am in the shocking group and I take it very serious..very serious..
when anaphylaxis happens for me I immediately use my epi...I do not wait around or stay at home because I am aware what happens...TO ME
using the epi at home gives me time to make it to the ER which is about 15 minutes away..
now a couple of things I have been told and read...

epi is the only thing that will stop a mast cell granulation...
epi will bring down your high blood pressure during an attack
and
epi will being UP a low blood pressure is it is down..

when they bring in the crash cart into your ER room because your heart is racing so fast they may have to use it...you begin to take very serious these attacks..
I say this not to frighten but to make people aware how very serious this can be for us masto folks
redbird

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Riverwn
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Re: When to use epi or go to ER?
Reply #7 - 01/21/13 at 06:28:57
 
To DavinaRN;
I would say, use it when you have a breathing issue, OR use it when you feel as if you are going to pass out, OR use it when you have that "feeling of impending doom", and you might not make it for 911 to reach you.  I would ask your DR or allergist if they have any guidelines they want you to follow. And remember, you get "twin" Epi pens because sometimes you need 2. IF the first injection doesnt stop what is going on with you, take the 2nd one--please always try to alert someone to be with you , if this type of situation happens, so they can relay what happened to EMTs just in case you
cant.


To Redbird;
High five in that feeling! I live 48 minutes away from the nearest hospital. I have been told to move next door to a hospital--how many of us can do that?? When these episodes first began, I thought I wasnt gonna make it very long. I actually had a heart attack during one episode but that was because I also have a sulfite trigger reaction and I didnt know it at the time. Epi has a sulfite preservative in it (in other words, I dont take Epi now unless there is no other choice). Please think about getting an emergency Rx of Prednisone, from your DR to take a one time large dose if you feel you are going into anaphylaxis--it has saved me many many times!! Once I realized it worked and I just might not have to call 911, I relaxed enough to let my meds work and I have reversed going into shock probably 12 times in the last 2 years--and have not had to call 911 in over a year! (Yaay me!). I am very much in control now and I NEVER thought I would reach that point--but I did Smiley

To Everyone;
One thing to please remember--when I had my episodes I was so very afraid, I was telling family members goodbye--someone should have kicked my hiny LOL. Debbie told me something that helped me so very very much. She said, "CHILL OUT!!!!", "Watch a funny TV show, good movie, do whatever you have to, to get your mind OFF whats going on while you give the medicine time to work, your body needs some time to get better." She was sure right! You cant stop anaphylaxis while you are freaking out--If you need Xanax or Ativan, get an Rx for it. Most of us have one or the other. Im NOT saying to do this if you have already reached the point where you have taken your Epi--Im saying to try this before you ever get to that point, IF you can. This has saved me so many times to be able to use my Prednisone, reverse what was happening and I could stay home. You know, I never did tell Debbie thank you for those life saving tips--Debbie, you ROCK, I love ya kid LOL Smiley
I hope this helps,
Hugs!
Ramona
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DavinaRN
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Re: When to use epi or go to ER?
Reply #8 - 01/21/13 at 11:49:00
 
Lisa here is my story quick background...the family joke is that I need a bubble to live in. My DS21 says he is more surprised when I feel great as opposed to bad. In Oct 2012, I had enough every time I ate wheat, I felt sick. It was easier to have low blood sugar than eating a pack of crackers. Celiac blood work was negative, so I moved forward assuming non-celiac gluten intolerance. So I have been gluten free since October 19, except for accidents. Then on December 26, after shopping all morning with my mom.  I ate out and before finishing eating I knew/thought I had been cross contaminated. It started out normal (nausea, abdominal pain, feeling need for bathroom). Within an hour it progressed to blood red itching palms, dizzy, seeing black spots, "D", feeling as if couldn't make it out of book store. Took 50mg Benadryl.  Within 40min, I was red head to toe, broke out head to toe and couldn't breath so I used my epi-pen (allergic to bees) and headed to ER. On January 11, I saw an allergy doctor. Out of 119 foods I'm not allergic to any!  Not even wheat. This is the point where he told me I need blood work and 24hr urine testing due to mast cell activation disorder, mastocytosis or idiopathic anaphylactic. He started me on Zantac 300mg and Allegra 360mg each day and told me I could eat whatever I wanted. I ate out Saturday 19th (took Zantac only in am) ordered what I have safely eaten before but felt the tummy issues (very manageable level) before finished eating but within hour itching so I took the Allegra and itching was gone in 30 min. One day last week, I had some safe soup but I added three saltines. Before I finished I felt tummy issues and now I'm itching (not as bad as Saturday). I am now taking both the Zantac and allerga in am. Yesterday, I had a grilled Swiss/turkey sandwich on gluten free bread. Within 30min tummy issues and itching, so I took 12.5mg Benadryl and a Pepcid (couldn't take more due to keeping DGS 2yrs old). It eased it off some, but when I took a shower last night it came back full force, so I took 50mg and went to bed.

I am scheduled to go back to dr March 8. I had blood work (trypase, c4, tsh, thyroid AB, sed rate,Chronic uticra index? Alpha-sal?) and urine (VMA, HVA, 5-HIAA, metanephrine) Thursday. Sorry had to guess at a couple of those couldn't read the writing. He did give me 12 refills on the meds.  

I do realize that it may not just be what I eat. I have noticed if its not wheat it doesn't start while I'm still eating  Smiley
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