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Need Advice.....Bone marrow Biopsy.....yes or no?? (Read 3733 times)
brethor
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Need Advice.....Bone marrow Biopsy.....yes or no??
02/19/13 at 14:53:20
 
Hi all Smiley

so long story short I have been diagnosed with MCAS and my specialist wanted to rule out mastocytosis....I had a tryptase done and it was not elevated....several years ago I had a colonoscopy and endoscopy that showed large reactive lymphoid aggregates in the colon and ilieum....I was just informed by the specialist that they did some stains (not sure what biopsies they chose as I had over 22 done) and it was inconclusive and showed scattered mast cells. She said in order to completely rule masto out I would have to have a BMB done under day surgery because I am so reactive. I have been responding slightly to the treatment so I am not sure if at this point do I really need to go through with the biopsy? am I high risk for masto? I am going to ask the specialist if the biopsies came from the most damaged areas because I think that is telling also.....but I just want some feedback from others here regarding the BMB....

Thanks!

Bren
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Joan
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Re: Need Advice.....Bone marrow Biopsy.....yes or no??
Reply #1 - 02/19/13 at 16:06:08
 
I'm assuming everything that could be included in a differential diagnosis for your symptoms has already been ruled out.  If that's not the case, then that should be completed before considering a BMB.

Everyone has mast cells in their GI systems.  What matters is whether there are more than the normal number, whether they are in clusters (aggregates), and whether they are normal mast cells.  Even though the GI biopsies didn't show SM, it could still be there in the bones, which is why the doctor wants you to do the BMB.  Or it could be at the earliest stage in the GI system and the biopsies didn't find it.

Personally, if my tryptase had been normal, I likely wouldn't have done a BMB right then.  This might be a controversial opinion among some people, but it's a procedure that has some risks (degranulation, infection).  

I would have had my tryptase watched annually and taken whatever meds needed to alleviate my symptoms.  I would have tried to figure out all the triggers, food and other types, that were causing my symptoms and eliminated them from my life.  Then I would have tried to get healthy in every other way to keep my stress level low, symptoms at a minimum, and my strength high.  

Actually, I do have SM, and I did have elevated tryptase and a positive BMB.  But I also did all the rest, and I now live a pretty normal life, with minimal limitations.

The number of cases that progress into SM are thought to be low, but it's really unknown.  In 1993 my tryptase was normal and now it's not.  If you do decide to go ahead with the biopsy, just be sure to follow the REMA protocols absolutely and also make sure you, your anesthesiologist, and everyone involved knows about using un-preserved meds and saline in your IV and which anesthesia is safest for MC patients.

Note:  Others may think you should have a BMB to rule out SM, and they might be right.
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frugalmama
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Re: Need Advice.....Bone marrow Biopsy.....yes or no??
Reply #2 - 02/19/13 at 19:04:31
 
As Joan said, I think you'll get as many different answers here as the number of folks who respond Smiley.  Personally, my vote is yes.  I was very confident that I had MCAS, as my tryptase has never been higher than 13.  But the course of diagnostics where I am was to do a BMB to try to find a specific diagnosis.  We (myself, husband, hemotologist and pathologist) were all floored when it came back positive for ISM.  So, although the treatment is the same as MCAS, it is helpful to have a specific diagnosis for a number of reasons.  First of all, when I got my diagnosis, I was in the midst of my CPP disability application (I'm in Canada).  As soon as the adjudicator had verification that I had systemic masto, my application was approved.  Also, I will be monitored 2-4 times per year, likely for the rest of my life, to make sure that the masto is not progressing.  Without the diagnosis, I wouldn't have that care.  Finally, it makes it much easier for me to see other medical professionals now that I have something concrete to tell them.

I am extremely reactive, and the few hours I'm out of bed every day are spent sitting or lying on the couch.  I react to pretty much everything right now, and haven't had too much luck getting anything under control. And honestly, the BMB was really not that bad.  I was premedicated with prednisone and IV Benadryl, and had two nurses, a resident and my hemotologist in the room with my hubby and I when it was done, just as a precaution in case anything happened.  It was a bit uncomfortable, but I have lots of GI issues and have had abdominal pain worse than what the BMB caused.  It was tender for the remainder of the day, but no more than a stubbed toe would be.  

Anyways, that's my long story Smiley.  If you have any questions, please fire away !
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Re: Need Advice.....Bone marrow Biopsy.....yes or no??
Reply #3 - 02/20/13 at 01:02:51
 
I can see where a diagnosis of SM would be very helpful in a managed care system.  In the US, it doesn't get you much.  The most important thing is to know your own body and be confident when you tell doctors what you need... most will go along with it.  SSD determinations are based on how much your symptoms affect "major life activities," not what your official diagnosis is.

I've had a BMB.  Mine was negative.  Long story why I did it... it wasn't specifically to rule SM in or out.  I've had dental work that hurt more Wink  Although my baseline tryptase has been slowly creeping up over the last few years, the only reason I would have another biopsy is if I thought it might change my treatment... and for that to happen, the number would have to pretty high!

Heather
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frugalmama
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Re: Need Advice.....Bone marrow Biopsy.....yes or no??
Reply #4 - 02/20/13 at 15:47:06
 
Thanks Starflower!!  I often see, though, posts here and on Facebook groups, from folks in the US who said they went to an ER with symptoms and were told they simply had anxiety, etc.  I would have to think that a concrete diagnosis would help in a situation like that, especially since MCAS is very unknown, while most docs would have at least heard of mastocytosis in med school.  Maybe that's only what happens up here, though Smiley.

Our disability system isn't technically based on diagnosis either (except in very extreme cases), but if you have many disabling symptoms for which doctors cannot find a cause, they often rule that since you don't have a diagnosis you haven't fully explored treatment options either.  This can often be overcome though one of the levels of appeals, but it can take years to make it through the system!  When I sent my adjudicator info about masto, she immediately understood and said that it made perfect sense Smiley

In the US, if you have a diagnosis of MCAS rather than masto, wouldn't the doctors be less likely to keep tabs on all of your levels and perhaps be less vigilant about checking for organ involvement?  

So interesting to learn about how other health systems work! Smiley
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Re: Need Advice.....Bone marrow Biopsy.....yes or no??
Reply #5 - 02/22/13 at 01:10:19
 
Unfortunately, in the US you cannot count on doctors to manage any kind of long-term monitoring.  My GP, for example, is perfectly willing to order a baseline tryptase, but every year I need to ASK or it doesn't get done.  It doesn't matter what your diagnosis is.  Someone with SM can just as easily slip through the cracks as someone with MCAD.  

Regarding the ER... you could easily have a diagnosis and *still* have a doctor tell you it's "just anxiety."  On the other hand, most doctors are afraid of being sued (for good reason)... so if you're confident about what you need and make your demands known, there's a good chance you'll get it.  Does that make sense?  Probably not Cheesy  I don't see it changing any time soon though.  In many areas of life (not just medical care), Americans have a hyper-inflated sense of individuality and entitlement.  An educated, persistent patient can get absolutely fantastic medical care... probably as good or better than any other country.  On the flip side, an uneducated patient who doesn't make waves can easily be ignored... in many cases, regardless of the seriousness of their medical condition.  (On a side note, when you're really sick, it's HARD to be that educated, persistent patient... and the insurance companies count on that).

Have you heard of "patient dumping"?  

https://oig.hhs.gov/fraud/enforcement/cmp/patient_dumping.asp

My guess is that this kind of thing doesn't exist in most countries with managed care... it would be unthinkable.

I'll get off my soap box now!

Heather
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Lisa
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Re: Need Advice.....Bone marrow Biopsy.....yes or no??
Reply #6 - 02/22/13 at 11:40:25
 
Hey Heather, patient dumping happens the world over kiddo, not just the States!  You only hear about it more openly in the States, thatīs all!  Iīve had this happen to me and I know plenty of others in my small town!!!  Sad, truly SAD!!



As to the BMB, itīs really a hard call to make.  When my doctor asked for mine I went ahead with it in spite of my low tryptase.  We didnīt find MC aggregates, but what we did find helped to paint the picture of my case and helped confirm my MCAS diagnosis.   We found that my marrow had normal lymphocytic aggregates, a pathological finding in SM patients.  So this, along with my elevated histamines put me in a possible MMAS category which means it could be a pre-SM.   We have to wait and see.  My doctors want to do another BMB for more clarification but since my tryptase is still on the low side itīs really rather a moot argument since in order to find the few MCs you have to do a very sophisticated testing to find them- a specialized flux cytometry which is done in only 3 or 4 labs around the world.    So, unless you have access to these tests, itīs rather useless to do this, as Dr. Escribano told me.  With a low trytpase the MC burden is equally low and therefore very difficult to find the MCs if at all possible.   However, like frugalmama said, in her case they found the MCs but in Canada they may have a means of getting these exams through the national health service whereas this may not be possible in the US.  For now, itīs impossible here in Brazil!!

I hope this helps!!

Lisa


ps - I really think you should speak with your doctor about this and see what his-her reasonings are and together make a decision.   It is a valid process of ruling in MCAS by ruling out SM.  This is on the most recent reports, yes.
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Re: Need Advice.....Bone marrow Biopsy.....yes or no??
Reply #7 - 02/23/13 at 11:11:28
 
I have Systemic Masto and originally presented with a tryptase of 19.  Being the curious type (I worked in Pathology at the time) and wanted to get to the bottom of it, I had the bone marrow biopsy.  

I was diagnosed very early in the disease process.  On my first biospy, there were some abnormalities, but they did not find the c-kit mutation.  Subsequent biopsies picked it up.

Did it make much of a difference in how I managed the disease?  Hard to say.  I personally wanted to know what I was dealing with, and if I had to do it all over again, I would probably do it all the same way.

I get my check-ups, they keep an eye on it, and I learn to  take it one step at a time.  For me personally, "knowing the animal" took some of the fear out of it for me.  But this is what works for me personally.  I have had bone marrow biopsies several times now.  It's not fun, that's for sure, but I'm not as afraid of it as  I used to be.  To me they are more "annoying" now than anything else.  But, if you are very reactive as you say, then definitely you need to talk to your doctor and ask yourself if it would be right for you, and if the having an answer would affect your overall treatment and care in anyway.  That's a good one to talk over with your doc.
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Re: Need Advice.....Bone marrow Biopsy.....yes or no??
Reply #8 - 03/01/13 at 07:58:50
 
WELL SAID JILLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   I'm right there with you!!!   I takes courage, but by knowing the beast, looking it straight in the face, a great deal of fear just plain MELTS AWAY!!!
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Donīt forget, there is so much more to life than being sick!
 
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