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Vulvodynia (pelvic pain) and H2 blockers affecting hormones (Read 11177 times)
Batik
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Vulvodynia (pelvic pain) and H2 blockers affecting hormones
01/27/13 at 23:44:12
 
Hi everyone.  I posted a few times the other month, though by now I can't remember what I said!  I don't know yet whether I have masto, and with current UK referral rates I reckon it'll be a year before I'm in the hands of an appropriate specialist.  Here's roughly where I am:

* Severe ME/CFS for 16 years - don't think there's any doubt about that diagnosis.
* POTS - in the throes of trying to get to the right specialist, but we're about 90% sure I have either that or something similar like NMH.  This particular specialist will hopefully be able to get me investigated for mast cell problems as well.
* Dermographism - diagnosed a few years ago.  Dermatologist I saw about it recently was useless, though told me to go on combi antihistamines.  I also have an increasing number of small brown lesions on my skin, which they claimed were warts of some sort, although I think they may have been mixing them up with other skin problems I have (flat brown markings vs. raised skin tags with no pigmentation difference), plus they didn't examine me all that thoroughly and did mention that they couldn't identify one brown marking on my skin (which seems to go red when rubbed, though to be honest it's hard to tell, I'm not sure how much pressure to use etc.).
* Interstitial cystitis - somewhat foggy diagnosis by my gynaecologist a few years ago.  Not too bad these days.
* IBS - hah, I sometimes think they just slap that label on you when they can't be bothered to investigate your GI problems.  It's usual with ME anyway.
* Vulvodynia - for the last few years; gynae seems to have run out of ideas.  Flares up before and during my period.
* Menstrual migraine and PMS - migraine goes back to 1993, PMS to 2007.
* Assorted problems with outbreaks of itching, breathlessness, red dots on skin, sweating, dizziness, tinnitus, blackouts, falls and so forth, triggered by things like eating or standing up - hmm, this one's been creeping up on me gradually, though it's been markedly worse since I had my gallbladder out in March 2012.  No diagnosis yet, the doctors just keep putting me on more antihistamines without actually investigating anything.

Anyway, I went on the combi antihistamines (alimemazine and cetirizine) in August 2012.  I'd tried them separately, but together they had the very happy effect of pretty much knocking out the vulvodynia.  No idea why, and my gynae had never heard of this either.

I had a very strong reaction to lunch a few months ago, mimicking an allergic reaction apart from the snag that I've been fine with all those foods before and since.  That's when a doctor put me on cimetidine.  There's a small study somewhere showing that it can be effective for curing calcific tendinitis in shoulder joints, and I have that too, so we kept me on it to see what would happen.

Since the gallbladder surgery ten months ago, I've been unable to take opioids because they cause intense abdominal pain that mimics a gallbladder attack.  This seems to be known about, there's a line in the cocodamol leaflet about "do not take after gallbladder surgery" (guess what the hospital put me on), but we haven't found further details.  Until recently, I managed to get around it by taking the tablets with food.  I only take them occasionally, not daily.

Over the last few weeks, I've been having a lot of problems with abdominal pain.  I've found that even if I take the cocodamol with food, the post-surgical pain would hit me sooner or later, and it's extreme.  And then I was just getting general abdominal pain, even if I hadn't taken any painkillers.  So at that point my doctors told me to go back on the higher dose of cimetidine (I'd been on the lower dose), and after that added in omeprazole, which I've been on for about five days.

Two main things I've been noticing here.  One is that when I'm on cimetidine, my breasts are bigger.  Apparently this is a known side effect - in men!  I'm guessing this is the usual sexism you tend to find in the medical world, that no one has bothered about the side effects in women as much.  I don't mind the size increase, but the premenstrual breast pain I got last cycle was pretty damned nasty, I had to go on very strong painkillers for it, and then of course the wretched painkillers attacked my stomach, so that didn't go well at all.  Plus my GP has pointed out that breast pain tends to go with premenstrual anxiety attacks, it's the same hormonal thing, and I certainly don't want that being ramped up.

The other thing is that the vulvodynia has flared up again over the last few days, the first time it's been bad since August, and it's getting pretty nasty.  And now I have no usable pain relief at all.

So far I've observed that:

1. Combination antihistamines (cetirizine and alimemazine) improved the vulvodynia.
2. Cimetidine made my breasts larger and more painful.
3. Omeprazole and/or a larger dose of cimetidine may be making the vulvodynia flare up - bit too early to jump to conclusions on that one.

Does anyone know about how antihistamines and such affect hormones?  Evidently they're doing something!

Next question, does anyone know how this works if you a) do have a mast cell problem, and b) don't have a mast cell problem?  Since right now we're only guessing that I have a mast cell problem, after all.
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Dx: ME (severe), migraine, fibromyalgia, low blood pressure, dermographism, vulvodynia, IBS, interstitial cystitis, various other bits and bobs.
Suspected POTS and mast cell disorder. Cousin with EDS.
 
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Starflower
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Re: Vulvodynia (pelvic pain) and H2 blockers affecting hormones
Reply #1 - 01/28/13 at 00:41:09
 
Hi Batik,

A few quick thoughts for you...

1. Antihistamines are a very safe class of medications.  If they're helping you in any way, there's no harm in taking them.

2. Everybody has mast cells and they're especially dense in areas where your body comes into contact with the outside world... skin, GI tract, and the genitals.  Pain is a common mast cell symptom because one of the things mast cells release is prostaglandins.  I've never had easy periods, but for the last couple of years the cramping has been ridiculous.  Tylenol (paracetamol) is like a sugar pill... my GYN gave me a prescription for tramadol (I'm not sure if this has a different name in the UK... sorry).  It's much stronger and actually works Embarrassed

3. Opiods are generally not safe for people with mast cell disorders.  That could explain why they give you such bad abdominal pain.

4. I'm sure you know that some of the symptoms you mentioned... dermographism, breathlessness, tinnitus, itching, fainting, etc... are pretty common in people with mast cell disorders, but I don't think they're common in people with CFS or POTS.  I'm not doubting the diagnoses you already have... I just think (like you) that your case is more complicated.

5. Surgery puts a lot of physical stress on your body... any kind of stress, emotional or physical, is a mast cell trigger.  And once you start triggering, it becomes a cycle that takes a while to calm down.

6. If the cimetidine is bothering you, why not try a different H2?  In fact, the way I understand it... that one (known as Tagamet in the US) is the least desirable H2 because for some reason it interferes with a lot of other medications.  Are they available over the counter in the UK?  In the US I don't need a doctor to experiment with H2s.  I also take a much higher amount than "normal"... 300mg twice a day, plus an extra 300mg before I exercise (along with a double dose of H1).

I guess this message wasn't so "quick" after all Roll Eyes

I've been where you are... struggling to figure things out, and waiting for doctors.  So frustrating!  Antihistamines might seem inadequate for what you're dealing with (since we think of them as medications for runny nose and heartburn), but they really are the first line of defense for people like us.  Benadryl is my best friend Kiss

Hang in there!

Heather
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Batik
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Re: Vulvodynia (pelvic pain) and H2 blockers affecting hormones
Reply #2 - 01/28/13 at 05:04:31
 
I should mention now that I disable smilies, so I'd appreciate it if folks could leave them out, because this forum replaces them with words and it can be confusing.

Thanks!

1. Good to know.

2. We call it tramadol too, though I think the Americans call it Ultram most of the time.  I do have some, it's generally my back-up if the cocodamol isn't strong enough.  I'm not that keen on it as it tends to keep me awake and make me incredibly nauseous.  I kind of assumed I'd have the same problems with it that I have with cocodamol, since it's more or less an opioid.  It's been hard to find out, and with the reactions I've been having, I haven't fancied experimenting.

I have to remind myself that paracetamol isn't sugar pills too.  Thoroughly dangerous sugar pills.  Low effectiveness, high toxicity: what more do you need from a painkiller, really?

3. How does this not-safeness manifest itself, out of curiosity?

4. A fair number of those symptoms do occur with POTS or ME, yes, and to be honest, I get the impression that anything goes with it comes to ME - which will be one reason why the misdiagnosis rate is so high, of course.  Dermographism isn't a part of either syndrom that I know of.  The dermatologist I saw last time was not terribly helpful on the topic of the dermographism, kept on insisting that it doesn't cause itching.  If its only symptom was to give me red welts if there's pressure on my skin, why would I be all that bothered and seeking treatment?!  Anyway, the specialist we are trying to get me referred to (she's outwith my area so it's complicated) is a leading expert in ME and POTS, and meant to be excellent at working out what other conditions might be there (e.g. EDS, that seems to be coming up an awful lot these days for something so rare - I don't have it but my cousin does) and referring people on appropriately.  But first of all we have to find a local cardiologist who will refer me onto her, and it usually takes around 4 months per referral, so seeing someone who actually knows about mast cell stuff is probably three specialists away by now.  At least I'm not still collapsing and being taken to A&E like I was in August, as the hospital had absolutely no idea what to do with me.

5. Surgery wasn't the only stress, either.  There were various fun things going on before and afterwards, of which the most notable was my then-partner leaving me in August when I was really, really ill.  I do wish the doctors had run all the tests like the 24 hour ECG back in August, they'd have got far more useful results.  That said, I did at least manage to fall over (I don't actually faint, I get pre-syncope and then fall without losing consciousness) during the 24 hour ECG they ran at the start of December, so hopefully something will have shown up.

6. Good point, I'll ask.  I'm so used to side effects and being unable to tolerate a drug that breast pain seemed a small price to pay, but you're quite right, there are other options.

My support worker dropped off a urine sample for me at the doctor's today, as I've also been getting some symptoms in the bladder area.  Honestly, everything in my lower torso is throwing a hissyfit right now.  2-3 days to get the results, apparently.  Meanwhile I'm left with, well, paracetamol.  Also ibuprofen, which I've been told it might be safe to try after a good few days of omeprazole, but I don't think I have the courage, considering how viciously ibuprofen has attacked me in the past.

I'm starting to feel that I'm taking so many pills I rattle, so I've gone through my meds boxes for the week and taken out the vitamin/mineral supplements.  I wasn't on anything too exciting, but it did add up a bit.  I was also on quercetin, since I'd heard it recommended a lot and it sounded safe to try, but I've taken that out too.  May as well play safe.
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Dx: ME (severe), migraine, fibromyalgia, low blood pressure, dermographism, vulvodynia, IBS, interstitial cystitis, various other bits and bobs.
Suspected POTS and mast cell disorder. Cousin with EDS.
 
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Re: Vulvodynia (pelvic pain) and H2 blockers affecting hormones
Reply #3 - 01/28/13 at 06:17:41
 
I can answer # 3 for you. People with mast cell disease generally react strongly in a negative manner to opiads or narcotic drugs, such as the painkillers. This can mean different things for each person, depending upon your symptoms. Some mast cell disorder people go into anaphylactic shock, which could be fatal. If someone is one of these shockers (like me), they could go into shock from opiad medicines. Other people might trigger extreme mast cell symptoms and feel terrible, as if they have the flu, have GI pain, bone pain, rashes, etc. Sometimes the symptoms I just listed are simply the beginning symptoms of going into anaphylaxis.

So, what Heather is telling you is that if you feel awful, it might be from the painkiller meds that you are taking IF YOU HAVE A MAST CELL DISORDER. If you find that antihistamine blockers help, then that is a good sign. There are H2 and H2 antihistamines. I don't recognize the meds that you listed, but they are probably the same as ones here in the US simply under a different name. If you can find Zantac or Pepcid, that helps for GI troubles and Zyrtec or Allegra will help with other symptoms. Mast ell Disorder people usually take Zantac or Pepcid in the morning and evening  and then Allegra or Zyrtec in morning and evening as well. By preventing the symptoms, we control them better.
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Re: Vulvodynia (pelvic pain) and H2 blockers affecting hormones
Reply #4 - 01/28/13 at 07:15:36
 
Some people with mast cell disorders are able to take ibuprofen, aspirin, and/or opiods.  I can't take the first two because one manifestion of my mast cell disorder is that my blood is thin.  I can't take anything that makes it thinner or I get major problems with bleeding and dizziness.  Before I suggested tramadol to my GYN (based on this forum), she gave me a prescription for Lortab (hydrocodone plus paracetamol).  It didn't work very well for me... even though it's supposed to be stronger than tramadol... in fact, it made me feel like I had the flu--achy all over, short of breath, and struggling to stay awake.  NOT GOOD.  Tramadol makes me feel like I have insects crawling under my skin (which makes it difficult to sleep, obviously), but it does work for the pain and doesn't have any other... more serious... side effects.  The "crawling" feeling is not a mast cell symptom (it doesn't go away with antihistamines)... it has something to with the stimulation of nerve endings.  I forget exactly how it works.  A mast cell researcher told me the only safe medications for me were paracetamol, tramadol, and if I'm in the hospital and really desperate... dilaudid.  That's it.  So... I don't have much choice.

Heather
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We're all in this thing together
Walkin' the line between faith and fear
This life don't last forever
When you cry I taste the salt in your tears
(Old Crow Medicine Show)
 
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Batik
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Re: Vulvodynia (pelvic pain) and H2 blockers affecting hormones
Reply #5 - 01/28/13 at 11:59:04
 
Translation for the meds:

Cetirizine = Zyrtec
Alimemazine = Vallergan
Cimetidine = Tagamet (which makes me think of tagetes, marigold)
Omeprazole = Prilosec
Co-codamol = Tylenol 3

As far as I'm aware, I've never gone into anaphylaxis.  I get the impression that anaphylaxis is severe and very dramatic, whereas the reactions I've had may have made me feel bloody awful and indeed collapse, but I didn't stop breathing or anything like that.  

Does everyone with a mast cell disorder get anaphylaxis?  I have vague memories of reading somewhere that not everyone does, and that since forums like these tend to be biased towards people who are having more difficulty managing the illness in question (people who have managed to keep an illness under control are less likely to visit a forum for support), there's a disproportionately high number of shockers here.  But I could be remembering entirely wrong, or have read an unreliable source.

If people with mast cell disorders react so badly to narcotics/opioids, how are some of you able to tolerate tramadol, which is a synthetic opioid?  I generally find that if I'm doing badly on codeine, I'm doing badly on tramadol as well, and morphine seemed to affect me the same way as tramadol.

The pain I get from cocodamol, and possibly from tramadol (can't tell, I haven't been taking it except with cocodamol), doesn't include the allergy-type responses I sometimes get.  It's a very good imitation of a gallbladder attack, with the pain in a line along the top of my abdomen, nausea, dizziness, getting sweaty.  I don't think my temperature drops, though, whereas when I had gallstone attacks I got hypothermic (34.5).  I spoke to someone at Pain Concern who said it could be a post-op nerve pain thing, pointing out that even keyhole surgery involves trauma to the area being cut.  Sphincter of Oddi dysfunction seems likely, from what I've read and from what my GP says.  She's going to look into it.  I have no idea why it's suddenly getting worse now, ten months after surgery.  Before the surgery, I just had to contend with more usual side effects such as constipation, itching, over-sedation (fainted one time), that sort of thing.

My support workers are trained to ask me a list of questions when they arrive every day, including whether I'm in pain, breathless, dizzy, cold etc.  It's made me notice that I haven't been breathless in quite a while, so hopefully the H2 blockers are helping there.  Normally breathlessness is a regular occurrence for me.

Going back to my original question, does anyone know how antihistamines and H2 blockers impact on hormones?  And/or how this relates to vulvodynia?  If the vulvodynia is this bad mid-cycle, it's going to be murder when my period shows up, and as I have no usable pain relief at the moment, I would quite like to figure out what's going on before then.
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Dx: ME (severe), migraine, fibromyalgia, low blood pressure, dermographism, vulvodynia, IBS, interstitial cystitis, various other bits and bobs.
Suspected POTS and mast cell disorder. Cousin with EDS.
 
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Batik
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Re: Vulvodynia (pelvic pain) and H2 blockers affecting hormones
Reply #6 - 01/28/13 at 12:07:18
 
Starflower wrote on 01/28/13 at 07:15:36:
it made me feel like I had the flu--achy all over, short of breath, and struggling to stay awake.  


This is where it's fun that I have ME/CFS: I get to feel like that on a regular basis, sometimes from something like having a shower or generally overdoing it, and sometimes just from standing up.

Oh well, hopefully that specialist I'm trying to get to knows enough about ME/CFS and similar conditions to be able to tease apart which condition could be causing which problems.  But it's going to be quite a long time until I get to see her, and I need to manage my symptoms in the meanwhile without having a diagnosis.
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Dx: ME (severe), migraine, fibromyalgia, low blood pressure, dermographism, vulvodynia, IBS, interstitial cystitis, various other bits and bobs.
Suspected POTS and mast cell disorder. Cousin with EDS.
 
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MarciaB
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Re: Vulvodynia (pelvic pain) and H2 blockers affecting hormones
Reply #7 - 01/29/13 at 02:04:45
 
Hi batik,

I'm under the weather right now so I can't understand all this .. But .. I have most of  your diagnosises.  

I've found relief from v via the low ox diet. When I went on the low ox diet for kidney stones, my v pain went away. My gyn was surprised that I had learned that my v pain was vulvodynia and cured it myself via diet. His answer was always " I don't know why you're having pain". Nice intelligent dr, but not very helpful when it came to v.. 

Not all high ox foods cause v pain for me. Nuts and chocolate definitely result in v pain. For some reason walnuts don't bother me but I suspect it's the omega 3.

I'm using nsaids nowadays, with food. I can take codeine but not morphine.

I haven't been dx with a mast cell disorder but according to my skin prick test, I'm allergic to most things on the planet.  I have known reactions to gluten, dairy, soy, vinegar, orange peels, etc etc but I'm actually allergic to egg whites and don't feel anything from eating these.

Most of my reactions aren't digestive. Only beef, raw onions or garlic cause gi distress.

I'm a celiac (dq2)  so gluten is a problem both gi and neurologically. I didn't know I was gluten intolerant until I was 50 years old, so I appear to have some organ damage.  Some has resolved but some hasn't. My ataxia went away one year post gf diet. Yay !

I just started getting anaphylaxis last year. So far benadryl works. Mine appears to be from vinegar. I react everytime now.

Gotta rest .. Tc ... Marcia

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« Last Edit: 01/29/13 at 13:35:55 by MarciaB »  

CFS,FM,Celiac,Ataxia,Dysautonomia,Paget's,Seizures,PelvicPain,Hyperinsulinemia ...Responding to Wahls diet, supps and MC meds.. kow ...    
 
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Batik
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Re: Vulvodynia (pelvic pain) and H2 blockers affecting hormones
Reply #8 - 01/29/13 at 02:43:46
 
I have been eating more nuts and chocolate recently, now you mention it.  I don't want to do a mammoth exclusion diet just now, it's not a good time for something on that scale, but I might try cutting out nuts and chocolate and see how I do.  Of course, I've been craving them!  Green leafy veggies are also meant to be high oxalate, aren't they?  My problem is that I'm vegan, and it sounds like a low oxalate diet is very difficult if you're vegan.

I'm just looking at a list of anaphylaxis symptoms on a UK website http://www.anaphylaxis.org.uk/what-is-anaphylaxis/signs-and-symptoms.

*  generalised flushing of the skin - not sure, I'm in no state to look most of the time.  I feel overheated and start pouring with sweat, so flushing is quite likely
*  nettle rash (hives) anywhere on the body - on one notable occasion.  Itchiness, on the other hand, almost every time.
*  sense of impending doom - not really.  Is that not more of a psychological reaction to being in a frightening, dangerous situation?
*  swelling of throat and mouth - no
*  difficulty in swallowing or speaking - swallowing no, speaking yes but that's if I've collapsed badly and am too exhausted to move, which is uncommon
*  alterations in heart rate - yes, tachycardia
*  severe asthma - no if they mean diagnosed asthma, but I do have difficulty breathing during these episodes
*  abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting - ab pain sometimes, nausea yes, vomiting no
*  sudden feeling of weakness (drop in blood pressure) - yes to both.  Actually, my blood pressure goes all over the place during these episodes, but it gets low at some point
*  collapse and unconsciousness - collapse fairly often, unconsciousness no

I thought anaphylaxis was about your lips swelling up and so forth?
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Dx: ME (severe), migraine, fibromyalgia, low blood pressure, dermographism, vulvodynia, IBS, interstitial cystitis, various other bits and bobs.
Suspected POTS and mast cell disorder. Cousin with EDS.
 
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MarciaB
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Re: Vulvodynia (pelvic pain) and H2 blockers affecting hormones
Reply #9 - 01/29/13 at 07:20:35
 
I hear you on the diet change. I really hate that it's what works best for me too.  Tongue  I'm actually on a Wahls/ paleo / low ox / low glycemic diet. Cheesy

FWIW. I saw Dr Oz yesterday and he had the author of the book "CLEAN" on. The food the author had on the show looked yummy.  

I react immediately with V if I eat nuts and chocolate and my reaction lasts for several hours.  So if these are triggers for you, hopefully by avoiding these you'll be painfree in a few days. But it may take longer since some say that oxalates build up in our bodies and we need to "dump" these to feel better.      

If you boil high ox veggies some of the oxalates end up in the water. I'm not exactly sure how long they say to boil these for optimum oxalate reduction. I just boil them for a few minutes to remove oxalates, throw out the water and cook them however I want afterwards.

Someone here will be more familiar with anaphylaxis. I get the traditional throat swelling. My lips swell if I eat an orange and my lips come into contact with the peel but that's the only lip swelling I've tracked.  It burns when it touches my lips too.

tc .. Marcia
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« Last Edit: 01/29/13 at 13:39:35 by MarciaB »  

CFS,FM,Celiac,Ataxia,Dysautonomia,Paget's,Seizures,PelvicPain,Hyperinsulinemia ...Responding to Wahls diet, supps and MC meds.. kow ...    
 
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